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	<title>Comments on: Kaiser Permanente&#8217;s Prominent Role in American Health Care Deform</title>
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	<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/</link>
	<description>Kaiser Permanente: Failure to Thrive -- A Managed Care Watch Web Site</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andy Brewer</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21734</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Brewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21734</guid>
		<description>One of the arguments made against "sicko" is that it promotes socialized medicine and is just more "liberal whining".  The hard line argument by many conservative critics is that if we go to a system like Canada's then we will all wait in line for weeks on end and no one will ever get care and then we will all be in the fields harvesting wheat and making substandard toaster ovens in some post-Stalinist nightmare world.

Could it just be that capitalism without checks and balances is fundamentally "different" than what the US once was and the idea of regulatory, best practice oversight is not a bad thing but instead the basis upon which we can make things better?

The concept that government "involvement" in an issue is analogous to communism seems, to me, to be a very weak argument.  There is government involvement in every area of our lives--checks and balances is the positive term, government interference is the negative.

Why can't I drive 90 mph through a school district?  Why do I have to have my kids vaccinated just so they can go to 3rd grade?  Why do I have confine myself to just one wife; why not three or four or as many as my income will allow?

These are examples of "regulations" (instituted and "controlled" by the government) and I don't think this is a novel concept that they exist and, hopefully, they are  put into place in order to help make the "system" work  "better" for the common good.

What is happening, I believe, with health care is that the "idea" of what one gets with insurance turns out to be in variance with what one often times receives.  In both socialized medicine countries and the US there is a distinct stratification at work.  

Whether one is excluded due to volume or due to income, in both systems there will be those who suffer and those who prosper and there are limitations to both.  

If Insurance Companies and other health care providers actually provided the services they "advertise" and contractually agree to then this would just be a question of rich vs poor and a different line of argumentation would likely follow.

But the most important issue (in my opinion) is that health care providers are taking advantage of a system that allows for profit taking (by many that have nothing to do with actually providing care but instead serve only in administrative capacities) to the detriment--in many cases this is life threatening--of the people who pay for their services.  

Why, if I am a manufacturer, should I put decent brakes on motorcycles if I can make them at a higher profit with sub-standard ones?  Why build the house to code if the likelihood of fire seems so remote?  These lines of argumentation are no different than asking "why don't you provide a level of service that meets acceptable, agreed upon standards"?

The issue is not that Canada is better or worse.  The issue is that the system in the US does not work and whether or not one implements "socialized medicine" or not is not nearly as important as making the current system better and providing a level of oversight and control that supports better service to the consumer/patient.

Kaiser's fingerprints--as evidenced by the tape with President Nixon--are on the smoking gun.  The forensics are, to me, pretty clear.

Right now, health care in the US is broken.  This "intervention" by Kaiser back in the early '70's certainly helped "break it".  I remember being a kid in the 60's when you could still go to the doctor and not have to sell the house in order to do it.  It is certainly not that way any more!!

SOMETHING has to happen; the status quo is no longer a viable option and if "sicko" brings awareness to this issue and initiates a dialogue and critical assessment of current state, then this is a positive thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the arguments made against &#8220;sicko&#8221; is that it promotes socialized medicine and is just more &#8220;liberal whining&#8221;.  The hard line argument by many conservative critics is that if we go to a system like Canada&#8217;s then we will all wait in line for weeks on end and no one will ever get care and then we will all be in the fields harvesting wheat and making substandard toaster ovens in some post-Stalinist nightmare world.</p>
<p>Could it just be that capitalism without checks and balances is fundamentally &#8220;different&#8221; than what the US once was and the idea of regulatory, best practice oversight is not a bad thing but instead the basis upon which we can make things better?</p>
<p>The concept that government &#8220;involvement&#8221; in an issue is analogous to communism seems, to me, to be a very weak argument.  There is government involvement in every area of our lives&#8211;checks and balances is the positive term, government interference is the negative.</p>
<p>Why can&#8217;t I drive 90 mph through a school district?  Why do I have to have my kids vaccinated just so they can go to 3rd grade?  Why do I have confine myself to just one wife; why not three or four or as many as my income will allow?</p>
<p>These are examples of &#8220;regulations&#8221; (instituted and &#8220;controlled&#8221; by the government) and I don&#8217;t think this is a novel concept that they exist and, hopefully, they are  put into place in order to help make the &#8220;system&#8221; work  &#8220;better&#8221; for the common good.</p>
<p>What is happening, I believe, with health care is that the &#8220;idea&#8221; of what one gets with insurance turns out to be in variance with what one often times receives.  In both socialized medicine countries and the US there is a distinct stratification at work.  </p>
<p>Whether one is excluded due to volume or due to income, in both systems there will be those who suffer and those who prosper and there are limitations to both.  </p>
<p>If Insurance Companies and other health care providers actually provided the services they &#8220;advertise&#8221; and contractually agree to then this would just be a question of rich vs poor and a different line of argumentation would likely follow.</p>
<p>But the most important issue (in my opinion) is that health care providers are taking advantage of a system that allows for profit taking (by many that have nothing to do with actually providing care but instead serve only in administrative capacities) to the detriment&#8211;in many cases this is life threatening&#8211;of the people who pay for their services.  </p>
<p>Why, if I am a manufacturer, should I put decent brakes on motorcycles if I can make them at a higher profit with sub-standard ones?  Why build the house to code if the likelihood of fire seems so remote?  These lines of argumentation are no different than asking &#8220;why don&#8217;t you provide a level of service that meets acceptable, agreed upon standards&#8221;?</p>
<p>The issue is not that Canada is better or worse.  The issue is that the system in the US does not work and whether or not one implements &#8220;socialized medicine&#8221; or not is not nearly as important as making the current system better and providing a level of oversight and control that supports better service to the consumer/patient.</p>
<p>Kaiser&#8217;s fingerprints&#8211;as evidenced by the tape with President Nixon&#8211;are on the smoking gun.  The forensics are, to me, pretty clear.</p>
<p>Right now, health care in the US is broken.  This &#8220;intervention&#8221; by Kaiser back in the early &#8217;70&#8217;s certainly helped &#8220;break it&#8221;.  I remember being a kid in the 60&#8217;s when you could still go to the doctor and not have to sell the house in order to do it.  It is certainly not that way any more!!</p>
<p>SOMETHING has to happen; the status quo is no longer a viable option and if &#8220;sicko&#8221; brings awareness to this issue and initiates a dialogue and critical assessment of current state, then this is a positive thing.</p>
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		<title>By: eKaiser Insurance Sucks.com &#124; How to recognize PRBS? &#8212; Part I: If their lips are moving&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21613</link>
		<dc:creator>eKaiser Insurance Sucks.com &#124; How to recognize PRBS? &#8212; Part I: If their lips are moving&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21613</guid>
		<description>[...] at kaiserthrive.org: Kaiser Permanente&#8217;s Prominent Role in American Health Care [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at kaiserthrive.org: Kaiser Permanente&#8217;s Prominent Role in American Health Care [...]</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21491</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21491</guid>
		<description>I think everyone should put up a free anecdotal website of just one page about their negative medical experiences, like this new one:

http://www.freewebs.com/mykaisernightmare/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think everyone should put up a free anecdotal website of just one page about their negative medical experiences, like this new one:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.freewebs.com/mykaisernightmare/" rel="nofollow">http://www.freewebs.com/mykaisernightmare/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21488</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21488</guid>
		<description>I absolutely agree. In my opinion, Kaiser STARTED the downslide of healthcare and healthcare for profit and all of the illegal activities that goes along with covering up their corrupt business practice. They started it all and in turn gave other healthcare facilities and insurance companies the immoral push to do the same.

The cancerous evil has now spread far and wide. 

Any business who could be so calloused and greedy doesn't belong out in the public "serving" the public. They should be shut down and replaced with human beings with compassion and a need to do right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree. In my opinion, Kaiser STARTED the downslide of healthcare and healthcare for profit and all of the illegal activities that goes along with covering up their corrupt business practice. They started it all and in turn gave other healthcare facilities and insurance companies the immoral push to do the same.</p>
<p>The cancerous evil has now spread far and wide. </p>
<p>Any business who could be so calloused and greedy doesn&#8217;t belong out in the public &#8220;serving&#8221; the public. They should be shut down and replaced with human beings with compassion and a need to do right.</p>
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		<title>By: Marianne</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21486</link>
		<dc:creator>Marianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21486</guid>
		<description>I just saw SiCKO.  From what my family has experienced with Kaiser, I'd say he'd barely scratched the surface of how greedy and rotten they really are.  (A Kaiser Kidney Transplant victim - still 10 years no kidney &#38; kicked off Kaiser &#38; sueing)

Someone should do a movie on just Kaiser, to highlight the greed, corruption,illegal activity, lack of accountablity, and lack of concern for whether people live or die as long as the hot shots make another buck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just saw SiCKO.  From what my family has experienced with Kaiser, I&#8217;d say he&#8217;d barely scratched the surface of how greedy and rotten they really are.  (A Kaiser Kidney Transplant victim - still 10 years no kidney &amp; kicked off Kaiser &amp; sueing)</p>
<p>Someone should do a movie on just Kaiser, to highlight the greed, corruption,illegal activity, lack of accountablity, and lack of concern for whether people live or die as long as the hot shots make another buck.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21453</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21453</guid>
		<description>For anyone who has been victimized by Kaiser and their witholding of care for profit, we know what the truth is. Experience is the best teacher. I TRULY hope that this movie wakes the public up to the fact of what kaiser really is, for profit and for profit only. Even Kaisers own employees get shoddy care, just ask Andrew Brewer who moved his family cross country to work for kaiser and lost his Baby because Kaiser witheld care. So much for loyalty to their employees and to their members. Talk about greed. Where's the heart here? There is none. Kaiser really does suck, we've got the first hand experience. Save yourself the grief and don't go there. Anyone who could run a company based on this philosophy is a crook.
The victims cannot dispute this fact and kaiser has created too many victims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone who has been victimized by Kaiser and their witholding of care for profit, we know what the truth is. Experience is the best teacher. I TRULY hope that this movie wakes the public up to the fact of what kaiser really is, for profit and for profit only. Even Kaisers own employees get shoddy care, just ask Andrew Brewer who moved his family cross country to work for kaiser and lost his Baby because Kaiser witheld care. So much for loyalty to their employees and to their members. Talk about greed. Where&#8217;s the heart here? There is none. Kaiser really does suck, we&#8217;ve got the first hand experience. Save yourself the grief and don&#8217;t go there. Anyone who could run a company based on this philosophy is a crook.<br />
The victims cannot dispute this fact and kaiser has created too many victims.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21451</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21451</guid>
		<description>"I am not a crook" posted below Halvorson's mugshot.  Priceless.

He should make that the cover of his book..

I am not a crook. Reform healthcare now. Then reform me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am not a crook&#8221; posted below Halvorson&#8217;s mugshot.  Priceless.</p>
<p>He should make that the cover of his book..</p>
<p>I am not a crook. Reform healthcare now. Then reform me.</p>
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		<title>By: Vickie Travis</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21449</link>
		<dc:creator>Vickie Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 04:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21449</guid>
		<description>What is the title of the mystery document?  Which branch of the National Archives is the mystery document located? 
I don't think that Kaiser realizes how easy it is to disprove the statement that they have made.  While I am writing, The Permanente Medical Group was ordered by Congress over a decade ago to annually submit a report on how they are paid and how much.  They had not been doing that recently and The National Archives is unable to locate any copy of their having ever done so. I wonder what the mystery is titled and where it really stored if it exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the title of the mystery document?  Which branch of the National Archives is the mystery document located?<br />
I don&#8217;t think that Kaiser realizes how easy it is to disprove the statement that they have made.  While I am writing, The Permanente Medical Group was ordered by Congress over a decade ago to annually submit a report on how they are paid and how much.  They had not been doing that recently and The National Archives is unable to locate any copy of their having ever done so. I wonder what the mystery is titled and where it really stored if it exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Healthconnect Employee</title>
		<link>http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21447</link>
		<dc:creator>Healthconnect Employee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 01:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/06/26/kaiser-permanentes-prominent-role-in-american-health-care-deform/#comment-21447</guid>
		<description>I have seen SiCKO. To be perfectly honest, due to Moore's other movies who have had large portions of them debunked, I find it hard to beleieve much of what he says. However, the Mychelle story was pretty clear cut. It is very, very sad. It is even more sad to see that Halvorsen would try to lie about it, considering KP LOST a lawsuit. I mean come on. What, did he go ask someone in PR about "What happened" and then blindly repeat whatever they told him? He probably doesnt even know anything about what really happened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have seen SiCKO. To be perfectly honest, due to Moore&#8217;s other movies who have had large portions of them debunked, I find it hard to beleieve much of what he says. However, the Mychelle story was pretty clear cut. It is very, very sad. It is even more sad to see that Halvorsen would try to lie about it, considering KP LOST a lawsuit. I mean come on. What, did he go ask someone in PR about &#8220;What happened&#8221; and then blindly repeat whatever they told him? He probably doesnt even know anything about what really happened.</p>
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